Curse

Tenebrae · Jun 10, 2009, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Just one thing , even thou trip sig is great you can drop ranger tactic "watch yourselves" slot for a "you move like a dwarf" . Fast interrupt to non-anti KD foes every 10 secs and a decent way to cripple

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Auto-crits apply to fleeing foes in melee, not for spears, bows, wands, or staffs.

Then ill believe its ALWAYS luck when i get DW from Vicious Attack on my P every time a foe runs away pal .

"If you strike a moving foe in the back, you will always score a critical hit."

xanarot · Jun 10, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

I dont believe its necessary to go DF, order or the like.

HOWEVER, physical teams run a lot of physical damage
-Phys main
-2 phys heroes
-para hench
-ranger hench

You're quickly looking at 6 physical damage dealers. Like the ebon standard of honor, if you can affect that kind of numbers at the same time OoP/OoV becomes a huge strain on anything, not to mention that this kind of healing is really, really usefull.

If you got the standard: +15 damage on everything. Be it attack, skill, spell, minion...
If you got OoV: +12-15 (depending on blood magic) on all attacks/skills.

There are a few things that can survive that kind of bonus damage x5-8 without going down very rapidly.

The problem however is healing, you cant rely on the hencies for that.. so that means with phys main, 2 phys heroes and an order version to boost all the damage you're always looking at the sticky "my paragon buddies" because you are then basicly forced to run 2 paragon hero's with the main using at least SY for damage reduction. Its either that, or the healing will be so terrible that you cant survive HM.

Ofcourse you can ignore the order and bring a full time healer, then you're looking at an e/mo instead of n/rt since the lack of minions means the necro cant sustain a longer fight. This will allow you to bring any physical you like tough, instead of being forced into a paragon squad. Do note you'll still be kind-of reliant on ranged fighters so they can stay within the standard for the damage bonus.

That opens up options like barrage, bha/volley and other type of hero's on which are godly under orders backup. The irony is that to bring that same order, you'll lack so much healing you're forced back into the paragons.

So if you want to go into melee, you're basicly forced to use 2 accounts... not everybody has 2 accouns... with all 4 games... with everything unlocked on both so that they can party up on everything.

At any rate, you arent forced into using orders... but you'll always have a pretty sub-par team unless you can bring 6 heroes; good physical (rangers, paragons) along with both an order hero and a reliable healer.
Want more irony? Sure thing. That'll mean the optimal team's 2nd setup will be 3 necro's; 1 for healing, 1 for minions and 1 for the orders. Or ofc some d/n order and e/mo based healer, but we all know they wont be as good as necro's fuelled by minions.

The Riven · Jun 10, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanarot

The problem however is healing, you cant rely on the hencies for that.. so that means with phys main, 2 phys heroes and an order version to boost all the damage you're always looking at the sticky "my paragon buddies" because you are then basicly forced to run 2 paragon hero's with the main using at least SY for damage reduction. Its either that, or the healing will be so terrible that you cant survive HM.

This is just wrong. though i admit that hench healers are pretty useless at hex/condition removal, that can be overcome by simple tweaking of hero builds.
I personally (running as a paragon main) have vanquished most of the game using H/H, there are areas i have done in a team of more than 1 human player as well its more fun, but its entirely possible to run a physway team in HM and do it very well indeed.

Another point to note is that "Racway" like sabs and discord can be vastly improved upon, to say that there is a need to constantly read "My Paragon Hero's" just shows a basic lack of understanding of the class

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanarot

Ofcourse you can ignore the order and bring a full time healer, then you're looking at an e/mo instead of n/rt since the lack of minions means the necro cant sustain a longer fight. This will allow you to bring any physical you like tough, instead of being forced into a paragon squad. Do note you'll still be kind-of reliant on ranged fighters so they can stay within the standard for the damage bonus.

Again you are falling into the trap of thinking that there can be no minions in a physway team, this is just false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanarot

That opens up options like barrage, bha/volley and other type of hero's on which are godly under orders backup. The irony is that to bring that same order, you'll lack so much healing you're forced back into the paragons.

So if you want to go into melee, you're basicly forced to use 2 accounts... not everybody has 2 accouns... with all 4 games... with everything unlocked on both so that they can party up on everything.

Most people will have at least one person who they can at times party up with, this is a MMO and as such its quite possible to meet other players online even if you are guild less friendless and have the social skills of a month dead ferret.

Please read previous posts as to why a physway team works without having to rely on additional heros devoted to healing.

Moloch Vein · Jun 10, 2009, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

So basically, I'm hearing a lot of conflicting opinions.

I don't think there are a lot of conflicting opinions.

Look, the effect of "GftE!" isn't exactly huge in hard mode PvE. You bring it at least as much for the shout trigger and to manage the paragon's energy. If you prefer you can bring Anthem of Envy. However that has a cast time.

On a side note, which Prophecies areas do you have left?

(I really need to try to fix something using "They're on Fire!" that actually works well.)

(A second thing is that it seems that the focus for this constantly changes. I was tasked with cooking a 6-hero configuration. Now it's suddenly a 3-hero configuration? Or what?)

The Riven · Jun 10, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

(A second thing is that it seems that the focus for this constantly changes. I was tasked with cooking a 6-hero configuration. Now it's suddenly a 3-hero configuration? Or what?)

Just go with what you were trying to do in the first place mol, hench can and will be good enough for any respectable GW player, the 6 hero team i think its an exercise in optimizing a physway build for 2 human players and as such is a more "worthy" task.

I really don't know why you do this for people, but good luck mate

Xenomortis · Jun 10, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

(I really need to try to fix something using "They're on Fire!" that actually works well.)

I've had some success with Fevered Dreams with that. Blazing Spear and Blazing Finale are quite good - so's Anthem of Flame and Burning Refrain if you can get it on the bars.

Lukyboy · Jun 10, 2009, 03:53 PM // 15:53

How would Strength of Honor work, compared to Order of Pain?
With the new buff to SoH I think it will add more DPS then OoP, but to fit it in a build which is hero-friendly might give trouble. Since you have to put SoH on multiple allies, you have no (or even negative) energy regenaration.
Something along the lines of: [[Order of the Vampire]] [[Masochism]] [[Signet of Lost Souls]] [[Strength of Honor]] [[Optional]] x 4
First thing that comes to mind, it's probably terrible

Any thoughts on SoH though?

Xenomortis · Jun 10, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Whenever I run an orders bar when I'm in a human physical heavy team, it's generally:
OotV, FF, Smite Hex, optional, SoLS, EBSoH, SoH, Res Chant
Optional may be GDW, a second hex or condition removal, or something else depending on the area.
As a human player, I can easily maintain SoH on 3 people and if I'm not using other skills much (apart from OotV) I can get away with it on 4.

For a hero, it's a different matter. SoH on two I think you can get away with, so long as they're specced decently in Soul Reaping and the rest of their bar consits of cheap skills.

AtomicMew · Jun 10, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

(A second thing is that it seems that the focus for this constantly changes. I was tasked with cooking a 6-hero configuration. Now it's suddenly a 3-hero configuration? Or what?)

I didn't ask for your opinion specifically. If you want to help, that's fine, and thank you, but please don't act like a martyr about it.

I'm trying to come up with a setup that everyone can agree is decent. Currently, I'm pretty bored with discordway, and of course, I want a point of comparison for my own purposes.

Here's a re-build:
[assassin's promise][tryptophan signet][Finish Him!][ebon vanguard assassin support][mark of pain][barbs][rigor mortis][rend enchantments]
Commagon:
[Empathic Removal][Spear Swipe][go for the eyes!][never surrender!][stand your ground!][hexbreaker aria][aggressive refrain][signet of return]
Motigon:
[Empathic Removal][Vicious attack][chorus of restoration][energizing chorus][spear of redemption][Mending Refrain][Aggressive Refrain][signet of return]
MM Support:
[Order of the Vampire][Protective Spirit][Foul Feast][Animate Bone Horror][animate vampiric horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Death Nova][masochism]

Major changes:
-OotV on the MM, since everyone has only praise for it, and vampiric horrors to counteract sac.
-Paras with empathic removal as elite. Hopefully, that will be enough support, and the healer hench can do the rest. Added mending refrain - rac seems to think it's good, since it's main bar in racway.
-Moved daze to the commagon (spear swipe) and replaced with tryptophan signet. I really like your idea, moloch, and it seems like it'll help a lot with scatter.

Carinae · Jun 10, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I think I'd drop FH for EBSoH. This will mean careful timing of your application of AP, but you'll get a lot of mileage out of EBSoH between the minions and paras. It will also boost the health returns from the Vamp Minions.

@ the MM bar: What are his attributes? Looks like he's quadruple specced. Here's how I'd play that:

1) YOU take Prot Spirit and drop Rend. You have the attributes to spare AND you can manage PS better than a hero.

2) Then on the MM bar, replace PS with Strip Enchant. He's specced Blood anyway. SE pops two enchants, you rarely need to dig any deeper than that. SE also incurs a positive side-effect especially for a saccer, whereas the Rend side-effect is negative.

3) Also drop ABH for Infuse Condition. This saves energy and also rolls all conditions to the minions. FF+IC de-stress the saccer. (do you really want a saccer to get popped with DW?)

NOTE: You might have to micro Masochism, my heroes are terrible at keeping that up, though they keep IC up at all times. Fortunately, it last a long time so it doesn't interfere with you much.

As a second thought, drop PS and run Aegis. AP+Aegis = perma Aegis and that should be better yet, in general. There are times when PS is called for, though so you'll just have to swap the skills for the specific zones.

Xenomortis · Jun 10, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

As a second thought, drop PS and run Aegis. AP+Aegis = perma Aegis and that should be better yet, in general. There are times when PS is called for, though so you'll just have to swap the skills for the specific zones.

2 Sec cast time on Aegis hurts. Along with the 2 sec cast time on Barbs, that can make for a significant reduction in killing at times. I'd have to advocate Mindbender for that.
I'm not sure I like the att split you'll be running with that either. But I suspect it could be made to work. (it may even work very well).

I really don't know what to suggest. Heroes aren't great with Prot Spirit, but it certainly helps. MMs spam Death Nova a lot and it leaves little room for anything else.

I just hate messy attribute point splits. It's for that reason I find myself not bringing OotV on any of my heroes on my caster chars. I may just be gimping myself, but meh.

Carinae · Jun 10, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Crap, what was I thinking? He can't run monk and sin secondaries anyway. I'll have to stick a note on my monitor about that.

Xenomortis · Jun 10, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Crap, what was I thinking? He can't run monk and sin secondaries anyway. I'll have to stick a note on my monitor about that.

That's an excellent point. The majority of my above post can safely be disregarded.

AtomicMew · Jun 11, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Heh. I'm refraining.

Anyway, I was thinking attributes for the MM won't be so bad. PS doesn't need much investment to be used.

12+4/10+1/7+1/4

11 is the break point for OotV and I think 7+1 in SR is good enough for energy, considering OotV compared to discord, OotV is less spammy and only costs 2 energy with masochism.

If masochism is bad on the MM, then I might swap it for SoLS. However, I'd really prefer to keep him on flee rather than guard (I think that helps a lot more than ppl realize).

Carinae · Jun 11, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Heh. I'm refraining.

No, I'm open to criticism of my previous suggestion. It was a duderheaded thing to suggest. Even as I was typing it, I was thinking "Wow, this would be great! I wonder why no one's suggested it before...." I should have followed that line of thought a bit further. (on a tangent: does anyone run AP on a player-monk bar? You could pull off a perma Aegis and any other long recharge monk skills.)

Nevertheless, I stand by my EBSoH, Infuse Condition and Strip Enchant suggestions. You don't need the ench removal on your bar. If you called the target, the hero is locked on target anyway. Honestly, I'd drop Death Nova because Xeno's right: You want this guy spamming Orders not DN and there isn't time for him to do both.

Moloch Vein · Jun 11, 2009, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

MM Support:
[Order of the Vampire][Protective Spirit][Foul Feast][Animate Bone Horror][animate vampiric horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Death Nova][masochism]

I think the other bars are acceptable, but this one is pretty bad. For one, you have three minions with no Blood of the Master. You really don't need Masochism on the bar with only OoV which costs 5e, and you also have slapped Death Nova on the MM bar together with OoV. All put together you deprive the MM from OoV healing (however small that is for him) all the time, and the physicals only get the healing while the MM hero decides that they aren't close to dying, which clearly leaves something to be desired.

The hard truth is that you can't run OoV with Death Nova. I'd consider Dark Fury, because this is a major boon for half the party, or scrapping Death Nova altogether. Also Carinae is right in that the enchantment removal can safely be left to a hero and microed if necessary.

upier · Jun 11, 2009, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I think the other bars are acceptable, but this one is pretty bad.

I do not agree with this statement.

The sentence should read:
"I think the other bars are NOT acceptable, but this one is ESPECIALLY bad."

Come on guys. It can't take you MORE than a day to figure out that his only way of keeping up AR/Mending outside of battles is SYG!? Plus nobody seems to be bothered by the fact the fact that he is running ONE spear attack (if Spear Swipe can even count as that) on the Command guy? Or his inclusion of Energising?
2-3 spear attacks, IAS, a few shouts/utility and the elite and that's your para.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

(I really need to try to fix something using "They're on Fire!" that actually works well.)

I've ran the following since I needed something to fulfil the req for SF, and it's a superb way of keeping up AR (and also Mending).
Plus the heroes are quite godly with BF. At first I was a bit pissed because they didn't throw it on Devona as she rushed into battle, but it seems that the guys wait and see who is getting cornered and then drop it on that sucker.

(No Ward due to the fact that it isn't unlocked yet. The guy spent most of his life VQing C3 and he's just getting around to other chapters. And yeah - I am way to lazy to look around for a req7 shield.)
Blazing Refrain was also an option - but once you rune up your heroes - they'll run around with 600ish hp and most foes in PvE really do not have that much HP. If on the other hand there was a third para hero - I'd stick it on him.

The last guy was mostly Jin with:

Although this one is the first to go depending on what you need for the area. I approve of Carinae's Smiting orders (although I mostly run a Healing version due to the fact that only Devona ends up being melee and I prefer Spotless in the slot of SoH) for heavy hex areas. But I really like Jin due to her interrupts and the fact that she has two additional skills that trigger Finales. And the fact she has high natural armour.

Moloch Vein · Jun 11, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Energizing is pretty ok if you run NF with the P hero. Limiting the P to one spear attack can be necessary to include all desired utility, but only having Spear Swipe is bad.

upier · Jun 11, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Energizing is pretty ok if you run NF with the P hero. Limiting the P to one spear attack can be necessary to include all desired utility, but only having Spear Swipe is bad.

Once you do that - you step away from the core of the paragon class (or the ritu for that matter) - it's hybrid status.
You want a full-on support guy?
Bring a guy that is designed for that.
If your paragon isn't providing support WHILE doing damage - you are playing him in a sub-par fashion.
And you don't do damage with ONE attack skill.

And Energizing still isn't worth it. Because there are simply better options for that slot.

AtomicMew · Jun 11, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I do not agree with this statement.

The sentence should read:
"I think the other bars are NOT acceptable, but this one is ESPECIALLY bad."

Come on guys. It can't take you MORE than a day to figure out that his only way of keeping up AR/Mending outside of battles is SYG!?

Learn to read and stop trolling. I already stated that I'm going to use melee henchmen (to keep up AR).

Quote:

Plus nobody seems to be bothered by the fact the fact that he is running ONE spear attack (if Spear Swipe can even count as that) on the Command guy? Or his inclusion of Energising?
2-3 spear attacks, IAS, a few shouts/utility and the elite and that's your para.

Now this is a serious question: why do you need a lot of spear attacks when they add marginal DPS, and also when they bulk of the damage potentially comes from orders, barbs/MoP? Also, what would you replace energizing chorus with?

Upier, I am more than capable of admitting that I have less experience with paras. However, when people tell me to take prot spirits on my N/A, or that I don't have enough shouts to keep up AR (when I clearly stated my use of melee hench) I feel like it is trolling. Even taking into account every single criticism and suggestion in this thread, my bars are still "unacceptable." It's getting pretty frustrating, especially when most people here religiously announce the superiority of physway. If that is true, it should be simple to correct my heroes bars to how they should be instead of just denouncnig them as "unacceptable."

Quote:

Originally Posted by moloch

I think the other bars are acceptable, but this one is pretty bad. For one, you have three minions with no Blood of the Master. You really don't need Masochism on the bar with only OoV which costs 5e, and you also have slapped Death Nova on the MM bar together with OoV. All put together you deprive the MM from OoV healing (however small that is for him) all the time, and the physicals only get the healing while the MM hero decides that they aren't close to dying, which clearly leaves something to be desired.

The hard truth is that you can't run OoV with Death Nova. I'd consider Dark Fury, because this is a major boon for half the party, or scrapping Death Nova altogether. Also Carinae is right in that the enchantment removal can safely be left to a hero and microed if necessary.

Firstly, why do I need BotM? If this build kills anywhere as fast as discordway, there should always be enough corpses. I've never felt the need to run BotM. Yes, there are 3 minions, but 2 are long recharging.

Do you think it is better to take OoV or dark fury? Taking into account your other suggestions, how is this? :

MM Support:
[][Protective Spirit][Foul Feast][aegis][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Dark Fury][Death Nova]
(Which elite do you suggest?)

-or-

[Order of the Vampire][Protective Spirit][Foul Feast][Animate Vampiric Horror][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Signet of Lost Souls][Infuse Conditions]